Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Again, it doesn't mean that we can't punish people to try and correct undesirable behaviour

4:37 PM

But we can do this without the delusion that life could have unfolded differently in the past

People don't wake up out of the blue and decide to slap babies

@Unfastened Belts No, they don't. You give yourself over to it in time.

Theresa didn't give herself over to slapping babies, Hitler didn't give himself over to building orphanages. Their circumstance didn't lend itself to that

You don't think they had the opportunity to do so?

If they'd had the opportunity, they would have done it

Slapping a baby was just the most evil thing I could think of offhand. It doesn't have to be that as the example

I can think of worse lol

It doesn't matter the example. People do what they do because they were born to a certain set of parents, and conditioned by a lifetime of circumstance since the second the sperm and egg met (edited)

4:41 PM

All the while having an undeniable feeling of free will

it is worse

I feel like you're confusing "you can't change the past so stop worrying about it" with "you can't change the present so stop worrying about choice and just be"

And again, really it's more than just "genes and conditioning". It's the laws of physics, the way the atoms in the brains moved, the way the sun is spinning around the Milky Way

and it doesnt matter what your circumstances are

4:42 PM

vices are universal

4:43 PM

hitting babies is a vice

I feel like you're confusing "you can't change the past so stop worrying about it" with "you can't change the present so stop worrying about choice and just be"

Yeah it can sound that way, but I'm absolutely not saying that second thing

There's only a very small number of places where feedback loops come up

4:43 PM

The psyche is one of them

Well I'm not really saying that second thing the way you mean it anyway, Luso haha

This whole "feeling of free will" idea comes across as a globe earther trying to convince a flat earther that their version of reality is the right version. (edited)

I'm not talking about an outer peace. When the pipe leaks, we call a plumber. When someone hits our child, we call the police

4:45 PM

Lol Luso

It's because we have an internal feedback loop that we're much more disconnected from cause and effect than say, the milky way

Feedback loops are still governed by the laws of physics

It still likely works on it, but it's much more abstracted

The movement of neurons

4:46 PM

vices are universal

I don't even know where to begin on this, so I won't haha

You know what internal feedback loops cause?

There are still things that science can't explain. "Spooky action at a distance"

For sure Luso, but just because we can't explain it doesn't mean it's not physics

4:48 PM

Spooky action at a distance happens because of an unexplained physical reason

4:48 PM

Well I mean

4:48 PM

It's not really so important. It could be God meddling in it, hypothetically speaking

4:49 PM

But we know spooky action at a distance is not something we made happen

4:50 PM

I'm not talking about an outer peace. When the pipe leaks, we call a plumber. When someone hits our child, we call the police

Just to emphasize this again, this description is not telling you to remain indifferent towards circumstance in the way you act (edited)

4:50 PM

It's not saying "behave differently so you're no longer unhappy"

4:51 PM

When there is pain, we will move away from it and try to prevent it

4:51 PM

When someone hits a child, we punish him to discourage both him and others from hitting children

4:52 PM

This is only talking about psychological peace of mind

4:52 PM

Inner peace

4:52 PM

We can punish someone for hitting a child without hating him based on the delusion that he could have acted differently

you can always act differently

4:52 PM

you never have to do anything

That's what it feels like

that is what its like

Okie

denying free will is a fool's errand

You make the same argument that's fairly popular these days, Marissa

denying free will is a fool's errand

I'm not sure which fares worse, denying free will or denying that the universe unfolds causally based on the laws of physics ;P

There's nothing I can say that's technically wrong about it, it's just, it's too simple

both are equally stupid

If you think that someone could have acted differently in the past, you are denying that the universe unfolds causally based on the laws of physics. You're saying he could have made the atoms in his brain move differently

you dont have to do anything, trying to excuse someones actions by saying they had no other option when they clearly did is a foolish and i think somewhat disgusting way to excuse shitty behavior

Yes, because he could have changed who they ended up becoming prioir to that event

4:56 PM

And they didn't do so, lol

He didn't do so because of the laws of physics, the way the atoms in his brain and in his circumstance were arranged

no he did so because he decided to

i think somewhat disgusting way to excuse shitty behavior

"You don't judge others? Disgusting" ;P

i want to say get over it here

When someone hits a child, we punish him to discourage both him and others from hitting children

Yet at some point the child hitter will have known that hitting children is socially unacceptable and will have made a choice that he enjoyed it enough to continue or to start doing it. In following his own motives he has brought what others may consider to be evil into being. Even if that person had no other option for their own happiness and therefore didn't consider their harmful action to be evil. They will have still invited evil to come into being by the very act of harming another.

listen

4:57 PM

hitting a child is evil

I mean sure Luso, I can agree with all that

if one has been conditioned to believe it isnt, thats a real shame, but they still make the decision to do it

Orhu, as I've been saying, hitting a child is undesirable behaviour that we can attempt to correct (edited)

I should never have opened this can of worms. This whole discussion may very well go against discord ToS (edited)

What

Lmao what??

Discussing child abuse, loosely

How is discussing child abuse against ToS

Have you read discord tos?

Nope tbh lol

Our arguments are so sloppy they're against discords ToS

XDD

Discussing probably alright, supporting probably not so much

There's nothing I can say that's technically wrong about it, it's just, it's too simple

Just wanted to say, this is not intending to be a theoretical description that is 100 % correct, saying that "life is like this, you better believe it." All it is is a set of pointers that's proved to be useful for dissolving attitudinal unhappiness

I mean, it seems like people have a lot of beliefs about happiness and unhappyness

If it doesn't resonate for you, no harm done

I've been told that happiness is impossible because you'll always want more

The wanting more can come to an end when certain misperceptions dissolve

I could have sworn I've been content, to a point I'd call it actual happiness, with just a few things being nice in my life tho (edited)

The wanting more is based on a belief that there can be more

5:04 PM

I could have sworn I've been content, to a point I'd call it actual happiness, with just a few things being nice in my life tho

That's exactly what I'm talking about

If this is already your experience, no more pointers needed

5:04 PM

I'm not saying you in particular are unhappy

Still though, I don't think I'd be particularly happy if I had terminal cancer

5:05 PM

Or whatever else

There is a such thing as overanalyzing a subject. I am continually impressed at shake/Marissa for finding new ways to spin the same message over and over again.

Terminal cancer is physical pain that may well be accompanied by emotional pain

5:05 PM

Haha Luso fair enough :p

Probably one of the first tricks I learned via tulpacraft was how to dampen pain

5:06 PM

And just like with that, there's a point where the force is just so overwhelming you can't stop it

For sure!

I believe life's the same way, if fate is really determined to make you suffer, suffer you will (edited)

I agree 100 %

5:07 PM

If you're determined to suffer, you will suffer

5:07 PM

If you're determined to recognize why you suffer, you will stop suffering

5:08 PM

The reason suffering can end is because it's based on a misperception, and this misperception dissolves if and when life delivers new conditioning that dissolves it

5:09 PM

There will still be physical and emotional pain, you may still get terminal cancer